Topics of the day:

1. Re: Damon; Side effects x round tripping; Re: Dr. Viecelli's comments
2. More on Damon and expansion
3. Re: Mounted models
4. Re: Mounted models
5. Re: Dr. Viecelli's comments
6. Re: Proposed New Definition for Orthodontics:Version:5.1
7. ESCO - The Electronic Study Club for Orthodontics


Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:08:12 -0600
From: "Giorgio Fiorelli" <gfiorelli@LIBRA-ORTHO.IT>
Subject: Re: Damon; Side effects x round tripping; Re: Dr. Viecelli's comments

Dear friends,

I have been out of the group for several years. It's pleasure to read again from Dr. Carter and I am not surprised to meet Dr. Viecilli here.

I have corresponded with Rodrigo about biomechanics years ago, but I could not keep his pace, I am rather lazy as a writer.

Now I wrote just to say that I totally agree with what Dr. Viecilli is saying. We don't need a clinical orthodontic demonstration for what is explained by basic science. Orthodontists should not feel as their duty to support Newton's in demonstrating the law of universal gravitation!

Most clinicians feel satisfied by having a good final occlusion, alignment and aesthetics. For sure this is the usual goal for a good orthodontic treatment. Wonderful results can be obtained in many cases with Damon system and also with many other edgewise approaches. However, I am also concerned about what is going on during treatment. I don't want to repeat the same arguments provided by Rodrigo, but I would like just to let you see a couple of animations which I use to explain, with some degree of simplification, some of the concepts expressed by Dr. Viecilli.

Ciao a tutti
Giorgio Fiorelli


From: "John Mamutil" <>
To: "'Huibi Liu'" <hliu18@UIC.EDU>
Subject: More on Damon and expansion
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:20:39 +1100

Just playing devil's advocate to help others understand this whole issue of Damon brackets and expansion. I will often use a round wire - straight off the reel to complement previous quad helix expansion or to quickly get a recalcitrant 6 out of crossbite . This is with conventional Ormco .018 brackets. The expansion has always been stable. This configuration also prevents canine expansion.

My practice is predominantly non-extraction, 8 week visit intervals and the use of hygienists minimizes my own chair time. The conventional ORMCO mini-diamond brackets for me still provide the best visual cues for placement so positioning rebonds are virtually non-existent in the practice.

I still hear (my own experience as well) that Damon brackets are still quite difficult to position.

So the question remains how can the Damon system improve on what I am doing?

John Mamutil

Baulkham Hills



From: "Huibi Liu" <>
Subject: Re: Mounted models
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:56:12 -0600

Dear ESCO,

In reference to the transfer case, I would hope that every orthodontist would educate the patient and the family to the openbite and then let them decide if they want to correct it. I also think that most orthodontist could detect the openbite with centric relation manipulation techniques, but the mounted models make it easier to educate the parents and to diagnosis the case and come up with a treatment plan. When a centric relation position is so different than a maximum intercuspation , then mounted models are excellent educational tool and diagnostics tool. Keep us informed of the parent's decision and your recommendtions.

Hurricane Alley,
Roy King


From: "Jean Marc Retrouvey" <>  
Subject: Re: Mounted models
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:20:14 -0600

Reply to Dr Dick Carter.

Indeed, articulators are a good tool. They allow for better analysis of interarch relationships.However, in the case you are showing, the important factor was not the articulator mounting but your diagnostic manipulation of the patient's mandible in centric relation which showed the dual bite present. If the bite registration had been deficient, the discrepancy would not have been noticed.

Can you elude on your future treatment option for this patient?

Jean Marc Retrouvey


From: "Paul Thomas " <>  
Subject: Re: Dr. Viecelli's comments
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:20:48 -0600

RE: Dr. Viecelli's treatise on loops vs sliding, has he has fallen into a trap of his own making suggesting the need for evidence based orthodontics?  I don't profess to have encylopedic knowledge of the world literature on biomechanics, but it there:

[1] conclusive evidence proving the superiority of loops versus sliding?

[2] conversely, evidence showing the superiority of sliding versus loop mechanics

[3] evidence showing round tripping increases treatment time?

[4] or to address two birds with one missive, in reference to Dick Carter's "dialog over the tears" (sic) proof that patients treated with articulator mounted models have superior treatment results or better stability?

So much dogma, so little time (sigh)

Kind Regards,
Paul M Thomas Senior
Research Fellow
Department of Orthodontics
Eastman Dental Institute
256 Gray's Inn Road
London WCX1 8LD


From: "Mark Cordato" <>
To: "The Electronic Study Club for Orthodontics" <ESCO@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:26:52 +1100
Subject: Re: Proposed New Definition for Orthodontics:Version:5.1

Dear Dr. M.Jayaram,

I am probably going to be criticised for this but the thing orthodontists do most is move teeth. Teeth are not mentioned directly.

I suppose, as a definition it is trying to be scientific so the inclusion of words such as harmonising and balancing as redundant and pompous with no enhancement of the meaning. In fact, by emphasising some features that we do only some of the time at the expense of the everyday we are perhaps overstating the extraordinary to the exclusion of the ordinary.

I remember a quote of Moorees which is loosely along the lines of "orthodontics can remove a dental deformity".

Mark Cordato

Bathurst Australia

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