Disability Studies and the Legacies of Eugenics

Transcript of discussion with Petra Fuchs: Bundesarchiv

(Transcript originally completed for accessiblity purposes and should not be considered a verbatim account of the proceedings. This transcription is meant to represent a general sense and may include gaps and mistaken information. Please request permission to quote)

A University of Heidelberg research project. In the 3rd year, we want to analyze 3000 of 30 000 patient files. We tried to do that in a statistical way, but we are also interested in human beings, the victims. We tried to write biographies about the individuals who have been murdered. We use our database and also try to find out how they have been transported, which were the central locations, who was involved and in what way. The patient files, (these 30 000)… at the beginning the idea was to look at all of them, but there is no money for that… it would make sense to do so. Sometimes we find very interesting documents that hint at how things worked, but unfortunately we can’t do look deeply at the whole 30,000. We have 10 people working in the project, 4 research assistants and 6 helping assistants who have worked with the files and found out the dates for the database.

About me personally-- I am a pedagogic. I have always been working historically. It took some years for me to personally deal with euthanasia. For some years, I was not able to deal with it, I got depressed and was not able to go on with my own living. I got closer to that …
The victims are important, they must not be ignored. I find it hard to deal with these files, because the tone of the medical staff who write about the patients is sometimes very hard. And of course it touches that it is know how every life was ended. You try to stay in touch, but you also have to have a distance, because you can’t work if you don’t have that.

I will tell you about the files we are dealing with. Many of them start at 1900. Patients had been in psychiatric care for many years. Pre-national socialism, you get an impression long before national socialism. You can get a good impression that things realized in National Socialism have been started long long before. Files are very different in tone, depends on which psychologist and/or institution it was. Also different in volume. We have files that only contain a photo, nothing else. No name, just a photo. Or you have one page, just a cover of the file. Maybe it might give the name, birthdate or which institution. On the other hand you can have very big files, and you have to differentiate between the medical history and the administrative file. When it is good, you have both. But sometimes these very big files, when you read it, it doesn’t say very much. And sometimes you have only a few documents and they tell you a lot. Very different.

David: we saw some files at Hadamar, where family members were trying to find out about their relative.
A: yes, you have that as well. It’s always different. You may have letters for example. And it is interesting, you have letters or cards, asking how the person is, very very late. Sometimes very short before the patient is murdered. And there are some files you don’t find anything from the relatives, and there can be many reasons for that - maybe they were not interested, or maybe the files have been cleaned out. These 30,000 files represent only ½ of those murdered in T4.
They have been in Hartheim, but these 30,000 had been cleaned out, and some things have been left, and not everything had been cleaned out. They had to work quickly and so they could not get everything, and that’s a chance for us nowadays to find out something.

Q: Who comes to read these files? Relatives?

Adriene..
You know these files are in the Bundersarchive, and the relatives may contact us to find out if there is a file on someone they are missing. We can look up a name, so relatives are able to find out if there is a file left. It is not always successful. 60% of the users of these documents, are because relatives ask about it. And the scientific work with those files only started in 1999. Because the files had to be rehabbed, or redone, so you could work with them. Very old. Lots of them, the paper .. it’s a real problem

Gerry: is your info accessible via net?
Not at this time. Because we are very busy, we are not at that point.
We have published a lot of articles already, in journals and magazines. I brought this, it’s in English, (Walt: it’s online in a PDF form),
60% of all the T4 files have been requested by family members.
Question: If you go by a number such as 270,000 killed in the medical institutions, how many files do we still have?
Couldn’t guess. Many files are in local institutions. You can use the internet in Bundersarchive and there is a collection, people have tried to contact institutions and archives, and asked what do you still have? You can get an impression from that. A lot of files are still in local institutions. We also examined 10 institutions files, for people who have survived the euthanasia program. We have worked with those files as well. There is a lot of material. Though you can find some institutions who have nothing.

Walt: are there rules or ethical guidelines about using patient’s files, so recently? Paris – you could use 150 years ago, London, 100 years.

A: it is about 70 years here in Germany. Especially with the files now, we are not allowed to publish the names of the victims. A little bit strange. For Holocaust victims, the publishing of the names is important – here it is the opposite. The relatives, most have much difficulty with this story. Reasons? – One point, for euthanasia victims, there is a hierarchy of victims. And I think the Euthanasia victims are at the bottom – connected with the fact they were disabled. And disability is again something that is not acknowledged. There is a lot of ignorance and discrimination. It’s a taboo, especially for the relatives. There are only a few, we have tried to get into contact… only a few, who say I want to have the name published. And you also have this situation in Hartheim. And they have tried to get the names of the victims, it’s a mixture there, sometimes the full name, sometimes the abbreviated name. Special program in this context.

Ad: you said many of the files have been cleaned out. Why?
A: All these files of the T4 victims, were collected at last in Hartheim, because they first had been in Berlin where the administration of the program was. All these files, the administration planned to have a big effort to collect the data and destroy the files. Summary of the files. And then the files got to Hartheim, where most victims were killed. 1944, and a little bit later, they realized we can’t go further. And they had more than 70,000 files there. They knew that was not good. Witnesses told that they tried to destroy the files in Hartheim. Every victim was photographed before they were murdered, but we found exactly 1 of those photos. It was an accident. They showed the patients had numbers on the body, with a stamp. And of course they did not want someone to see these photos after 1945.

Q: only 1 photo file found in all the T4 files?
A: I can’t tell you a number.

REb: The photo was not taken just before the killing.

Normal photos, eg 1925, most of the institutions have these.

Q: Few families give permission. But if they do, can you publish the name?

A: Yes. We try to write the biography then. There may be relatives still alive, we get in contact with the people. But they might not know they have a victim of the euthanasia program. But if you write, or phone, it has consequences for the relatives. You have to deal very sensitively with that. And you have relatives who come and ask us, can you help us? That is the better way for us, sometimes open to saying you can work with that file, and I will try to tell you more about that person. And you can publish the full name.

Q: Why did they take photos just prior to the killings?

A: I now think, we found this one person, they are 2 photos, one up to (belly), and the other I have forgotten… a side photo of the same person.
I think it was an administration thing as well. They had these special numbers. They had a plan to get rid of the files, just have numbers, and they counted the people who had been murdered

Q: Any effort to put their disability on view?
A: No. Nobody knows which way they were photographed. I don’t know. We only have that 1 person’s photo.
Sandy: Pat… has a section on her thesis. The photos were for future research, they thought they were going to win, say… see what was happening. Same thing as counting the number of sterilizations.
A: The research is only a small part. Most of the people killed in the T4, were not interesting for research. Special patients were chosen, who were interesting for research. During the T4, it was only a few.

I am trying to find more about children as victims of the T4 program. There are few children with special illnesses, eg epilepsy, were interesting for medical research, but the others were not interesting. And I found out that about 5000 children were victims of Euthanasia, T4. That’s a high number, and researchers in Germany did not know for a long time if children were victims of T4. This research shows 5% of total victims, youngest was 3 years old.
Q: Can you explain rounding up of disabled people in preparation for T4?
A: Little bit difficult. Normally, if we want to use that word, or usually, the victims were coming from the psychiatric institutions. But the ways into the institutions were very different. For example, the children – a lot of them came from the welfare institutions.
(Charity)
I am writing a biography of a boy. He was living in a family of the working class, 4 children, probably a neighbor told the people from the welfare institution there is something wrong with that family, it was in the 1920s. They had just one room to live in… the welfare said these children had to be taken from the family. They were put in an institution. This little boy then went from institution into a psychiatric setting, specially a part for children. Try to get him a school for children in the institution. (translation question)
So there was correspondence about that boy. The father did everything to get his children back. And he wrote to the institutions, he wanted his son back, he wanted to visit him. The boy was going from institution to institution. At last he was in Brandenburg Gurden?
One of the important institutions in Brandenburg for the T4 program. This boy came there, and the father still tried to get back his son. At last, they told the parents they were not allowed to educate the son any longer. They took him away, and the boy was in the hands of the institution. I tried to find out, its difficult, I got the impression that this little boy is … they look at him more negatively after moving from institution to institution … it is a kind of stigma. It’s difficult to prove that, in these documents, it’s something in-between. That leads, at last, to the fact that he is becomes one of the victims, and he is 14 years when he dies.

Q: What was his diagnosis?

A: Feeble-mindedness. With the children you have this very often. And of course it is a social diagnosis, that begins with the family. He has 3 sisters, and I try to find them as well. They have also been in Gurden as well. I try to find the files, see if they exist, see if they were killed in T4. But you don’t find anything, it does not say anything. But they could also be victims, because one of the victims had Downs syndrome. This was interesting as well.

Q: Any files showing that individuals were only brought to institution to be killed?

A: Yes.

Q: I am confused. Are there really 2 different cases, where some people were just brought to the institution just to be killed?

A: You have that case as well, of course. You have people – only a very few – most of them you can see are in institutions for a very very long time. I can’t imagine it, but some are in institutions for thier whole life. One was an artist, he was married and had children, he got an illness, and he spent the other half of his life in psychiatry, and he was about 80 years old. And it ended with euthanasia. Important to look at group as well as individuals.

You don’t have these black/white situations… the ones who were murdered/ murderers
And that is the reason why… of course you can find there were things that led to the death.
For example, not being able to work – that was a very important criteria in selection. Or those who needed help.
And the perpetrators – it’s not so easy. They sometimes act like this, and sometimes do the other thing, and you can’t explain it.

Q: The registration forms that were filled out when a kid with a disability was born… were they tracked?
A: You have different forms. The ones you were talking about started at the 1920s. Those who have handicaps of the body, there were these registrations. There was this law, beginning in the 1920s. And I think it just lead to everyone with a disability being recognized. The Nazis think, we can work with that, that makes it easier. That law was called the Cripples Care Law, 1920.

Q: Were they registered by the State or a medical institution?
A: The state. And during the T4 Program, you had these registry forms, we find that form in those files. It was a special instrument, connected to administration, you have to organize these things. And you need the forms to register all patients who were in psychiatry.

Q: One of the things we saw in Hadamar files, the opening notes are more hopeful… they are going to go through the following rehabilitation program… as you get into the last 1930s and 1940s, assessments become more severe.

A: I can’t say that. I found a file of a little boy victim, in an institution since 2, whole file is 4 pages, and the tone is so horrible, because always repeated the same, sometimes just 2 words. Between the lines, you can sense that something traumatic has happened to the boy. And then 5 years pass , and only 2 words, eg “nothing has changed” and that is in the 1920s.

Walt: And I can add, cases in London and Paris in 1920s, very similar kinds of records, with the exception of new surgeries, there is a spark of enthusiasm, and the recorded points of observation get longer and longer in between.

A: And we have several files, the patients are 40 years in the institution. And years go by between entries in the files.

Q: Say more about how not so black and white?
A: I will try to. Of course, you do have perpetrators who are very clear. Eg the Doctor of Gurden. But in other files… there are more of those. Those names are known. But there are other docs, for example, we had a clerical near Dresden, one doctor who had to fill in these forms, and he was in between, because he tried to save children, told parents get them home, but he also filled in these forms and more than 200 children were murdered in T4 and he signed that. And I can’t say he is a perpetrator, and I can’t say he is a very good doctor. And you don’t know which conditions he is confronted with. Why in one case, he wrote everything is fine, and the child is murdered? It’s very difficult. It would make it easier if you it was black and white.

Q: I have read a little of your work on Herda Wulf??? She was a disabled social worker and set up homes for children with physical disabilities. When the Nazis took over, she joined them, to protect her children. And the children in her institutions were fine.
A: She was one of the few in Germany at that time who resisted. She also had special conditions. She had disabled children with physical disabilities and they were not that endangered. This makes a difference to psychiatry. If a patient of psychiatry, that’s different. She really was anti-Nazi, and she tried to survive herself, and she tried to save the children in her homes. And she also had very interesting connections to Jewish people, beginning in 20s, which she held on to, she visited illegal meetings of Jewish people who had exiled from Germany, and she went there during several years- 1940 was the last year. She had political connections, to Communist Party people, and to people who had been persecuted by the Nazis. I think the correct analysis of how she deal with it – but also you have the black and white analysis. She had connections to people in the National Socialist Party who had higher functions, including one doctor. He helped her because he had the high function and he had the connections. He came to the home, to help, but he is also a perpetrator and did a lot of sterilizations. It’s very mixed. I can’t tell from now, that’s very bad what you did. I can’t tell.

Q: DO you know anything about people with disabilities who were not institutionalized – what happened to them? Eg deaf people who were sterilized… did they work/stay in school?
A: This is a field where there could be much more research, but there is some now. Dis. People not in institutions, very different. It is known that some disabled people tried to become part of the National Socialist Society. They really tried, and they did not just do it because they thought maybe we can survive it. They were convinced that it was right, the National Socialist ideology. I think there are more ways to live in that time for disabled people… someone tried to find about Deaf people… some of them really had work. I know from one interview with a Deaf witness, that he was a part of the SS. This was also a possibility. You had several possibilities at this time. And also you have people who had to hide during this time. I find it very interesting. And I also do know about blind people. That blind people also tried to get part of the society, but there were also blind people who said no. Rudolf Kramer he was a blind lawyer published a critical article about sterilization. I will send it to you. I have an idea or question, I think it would be very interesting, when those things get translated to English, I would like to work towards that.

Q: Your book is not translated?
A: No
I brought these texts.. this is a photo to give you an impression. This is a group of disabled people, only men, before 1933, there were women… self-help group. This is the new leading group in 1934. Little sign, you can read the German name.
I have also tried to find out about one woman who was active in the group in the 20s. She was a Jew as well. She was one – when the group was founded, they had to exclude the Jewish members. And she was one of those Jewish members who was excluded in 1933. She founded a Jewish group of disabled people, 1935. Already very late. And this group was founded. But then in 1937, I don’t know what happened to her. I tried to find out. It’s all very interesting, but its not in English. I show you this… patient files, I am dealing with. And these are from an institution – religious. Very different from a lot of others that I have, because you see a lot of text. You may have a look at it. It begins in 1919. The tone in these files is better than the files from the State institutions.
Q: What is in the Bundersarchive now?
A: In general?
Q: About this period?
A: A lot of. People who have been in the National Socialist Party, if you have the name and a birthdate.
Q: About disability?
Q: How have the files been organized? By name? Diagnosis? Institution? What ways have the patient files been put together? The 30000 files?

A: They all have got a new number. It is a special name for the whole, which is these R 179. It means Euthanasia victim. And for every file you have a number. And of course, if you have a research question (such as Gurden)… you want to have all the files from Gurdern, and then you can try to find things. If you are a relative, then you can phone, write a letter, and can look for that person if there is a file. The archive official does that for you. And then you come and you can have a look at that special file.
Q: So there has not been a thicker coding… eg length of stay…I wouldn’t be able to pull out the patients who have been ......

We have not discussed the database….
Yeah if you ask for that for the 3000, I can say at the time, there is no access for people from outside to the database. We are trying to analyze it. Maybe when we are finished. Its not really clear. Of course, if there are other projects dealing with similar things, they can contact us, and we try to contact.

Q: End date for your project?
A: Next year in March. But we now try to get money for a 4th year. I don’t know. We are too busy to publish all the things, and we have decided to publish all the books, and we want to have one book where we publish the biographies, and most people don’t know anything about euthanasia. And the other thing is we have to publish the results of our research. We have a structure for both books, but the things have to be written. And we need a lot of time.

Q; What is in the Bunders.. from the T4 period?
Files of course, and this collection about all institutions who have documents, and of course you have the chance to ask for people, such as what doctors have been in the Party as well.
Q: all of the files from the 6 killing centers are now in the Bundersarchive?
A: Yes. They contain them. They come from everywhere, including Austria, Poland, Slovenia, Czechoslovakia. These are special collections. And we try to find out more about that. Only a few things are known about euthanasia in Poland. We try to find out at the basis of these files. There is much work to do. It fills another year.

Q: You’ve just answered one of my questions – the territories, not just killing, shooting, they were killing as they retreated. Do you have the stuff from Russia or Poland? Disabled in camps?
If they are victims of euthanasia?

We don’t have files that prove that. If it is, it is exceptional. But as I said it is individual.
You also ask the question about soldiers being victims of euthanasia. A colleague of mine found things that would prove that. Soldiers then ill because of the war, were victims of Euthanasia as well.

Q Maybe on Russian front?
A: I don’t know

Of course, I didn’t mention… we are also looking at the Jewish patients.

Q: 30,000 files, as differentiated from 270,000 people?
Who is funding this project and what does the German Govt want done with it?

Funded by institution which always gives money for research; the Government – I can’t say they have any interest.
Q: 30,000 files… 270,000 people.
A: 30,000 files only from T4 victims. We have still files from Euthanasia… but when they are still there, you have to search for them at the local institution. Or you have a big book at the institution, you could look through them. And look at the date of death, and see if it is a victim of Euthanasia after 1941.

270,000 is the official no. of murdered people. Central question of all research, but we can’t answer it. About 200,000 some say 300,000 … it’s more than…
If we add disabled Jews we get a different number.
Plus people became disabled if they lived in the camps for a couple of years.

Q: History of concealment of these files. Was it that they were classified as medical?
There was a New York Times article a few years ago about this topic.
At first these files were found in 1990 (in Ministry of East Ger) all in E/W Ger thought they were destroyed; all thought that euthanasia files were destroyed;

S: yes, there are published comments about destroyed files

P: researchers then said these are important files; and said the records should be re-decentralized, but others argued the opposite; then the files had to be preserved (were in a cellar); they were contaminated with mold; that took several years; that was the cause of the delay;
S: at Hadamar there are some records, never centralized, b/c not part of T4
DO you have different names for post-T4?

P: it’s a big controversy; we don’t really use wild euthanasia; we speak of first/second phase of euthanasia, but this may not work either, so it’s a continuing challenge with elements of the faux-black/white; researchers are always interested in structure and the sense, but it often is the structure we don’t want to see and that things don’t make sense or that we can’t figure it out – my personal opinion

R: The maybe clear to most, but why is euthanasia not appropriate?

P: It suggests that there was no plan, which is not true; there was a plan (not wild), not central organized like T4, but local or decentralized, but still a plan

S: it loses its central structure/reporting
P: They don’t murder them centrally but locally and by different methods, like Hadamar
R: I read that wild euth went on into the 50s
P: no; maybe, but it is hard to prove after 45. People were still working; problem of hunger/starvation; don’t have anything to eat – is it euthanasia or starvation; books with patient registry, look in 44 or 45 see entries with crosses for death – it is impressive and see numbers who died – it was horrible.

Book of death

Ro: small query – photos of newborns who were euthanized, not in psych instit. Were they murdered In the places they were born?

P: Can’t say

Same documentation volume? Of Newborns - NO; ANY? Yes, some but not centralized

Speaking of babies? Yes. Part of research? About 5,000 were killed in research (kindereuthanasie); that’s what you’re asking? No, newborn disabled, registered by midwives and killed; Haven’t seen such a file; m/b they didn’t even bother with a file; they had a law; they filmed some; they advertised the killings as mercy-deaths

P: I think we are talking about the past and I think the more I research, that it is very important to the present; a tendency in Germany to say ok that is the past, finished, nothing can happen similarly today; we don’t have to deal with it anymore; That is a youthful point of view today; I have students I teach; it’s difficult for me to connect past/present; I think a great deal about the present with ethics, genetics; when I start to deal with it, I find that harder than to look at the past (this is our present; I’m often astonished at what is normal today which was not normal several years ago)

A: examples?

P: prenatal diagnostics; women in my class want to be nurses ; what would you do if someone said you were pregnant with a disabled child; I’m sad/angry that most of course I would abort – so normal now; hard to find the people with the native contrary point of view. Then stem cell research with avocal people (I assume fetus); don’t know how to stop that.

D: Are there videos of the propaganda at the Bundes

P: yes, special dept. at Bundes; one – there is a pre-edited film with collected scenes with institutionalized children and light effects and impression of monstrous image; There are more.

D: are those available for education

P: can view it there; maybe a copy?
A tip; films – Haus of Wansee conference – they have a big collection of films, not only historical, but documentary with NS system; 8,000 films; can look at a list/catalog and try to get a copy; it’s easier, they are helpful; I can try to get you the address/telephone

It is interesting, accessible too! Can get in with a ramp; difficult as there is an old lift (don’t know size); could ask for it; they’re helpful; good to see books there; they have everything; good for films;

Students want more visuals

I’ll will write it down and get more details; Open Saturday

Are your books available at stores?

I have two; can buy it in bookstores

Ghwk.de; can search for books there

D: You listed Russia, Poland, Czech, Slovenia as outlying territories; any from Netherlands? No
Seems to be some unclarity about euthanasia in Netherlands

P: I think there was none with respect to T4 (a German program); they’re Nordic

R: France was occupied, but no T4; Austria yes

Sh: hospitals in Amsterdam were cleared out for administration, yes

D: some unclarity re: Netherlands

P: I don’t know

D: Thank you. Is there any way to visit you by all or any of us next week?

P: use the reading room w/o me, but we can meet too; Bundesarchiv not very accessible;

Sa: can we lock a chair outside – Yes

P: Have to register; get a card and use the reading room; if you want to look at the files; have to order them; next day file ordering

I could contact someone to get something organized and order some of the R179 files; do you have special interests? A special institution? I have to tell you up front; several files are in our special room so you can’t see them; not accessible room; I myself have a lift-style chair; next week we have a meeting date, so it’s hard for me to get off work and have no time; but you can read in the reading room (lesensaal); what day?

Can you introduce – Brenda

Deaf studies; Saw much on deaf with psychiatric funneling;

This is difficult with mental disabilities co-extant;

My hunch most will be under feeble-minded (a common pairing).

Perhaps find 2-3 with coincident deaf; try to order them

M: interested in certain dis identities and intersection with other identities – e.g. Jewish disabled;

One of our group is working with the Jewish files; I can’t promise it; If not Jewish, then other racial definitions

Sharon L. Snyder, Ph. D.,
Director, "Legacies of Eugenics" Summer Institute, Einstein Forum
Assistant Professor, Interdisciplinary Ph. D. Program in Disability Studies
Department of Disability and Human Development
University of Illinois at Chicago (MC 626)
1640 W. Roosevelt Rd. #207
Chicago IL 60608-6904 U.S.A.
E-mail: ssnyder@uic.edu Phone: (312) 413-1975 (Voice) Fax: (312) 996-0885